TAPPED IN - Thu Sep 27 16:05:36 2001 PDT

Design Patterns for WebQuests

Started recording in After School Online Room (#1460)[TappedIn] at Thu Sep 27 16:05:36 2001 PDT.

AdamG asks, "Hello BJB how are you doing?"

BJB waves hi to Bernie, Phil, and Keiko

BJB [to Adam]: "great, thanks. And you?"

BernieD waves madly

BJB . o O ( it's been quite a while since we've seen you, Adam! )

AdamG says, "Just fine and happy to be here. I have been trying to get back in to the discussions."

PhilB [WebTeach] settles in to take notes for his absent colleagues.

BernieD says, "Intimate group this time."

KeikoS . o O ( we'll see, Bernie )

BernieD says, "I guess this WebQuest fad is finally blowing over."

BJB nods to Bernie...we'll give everyone a couple more minutes

BJB laughs...I don't think so!

PhilB says, "Folks must be busy getting their year started. I know I am."

AdamG says, "I don't think it will ever blow over."

KeikoS [HelpDesk] nods vigorously to Adam

FredSt has arrived. Fred's Recorder (recording) has arrived.

PhilB says, "Actually, it's geting wider & deeper."

BJB says, "participation at TAPPED IN is very slow since Sept 11...people are still coping"

BJB exclaims, "hi, Fred!"

BernieD says, "Hi Fred."

FredSt says, "Hi"

BernieD says, "One would hope they're spending time with family and smelling the roses."

AdamG says, "Bernie, it looks like I will be doing your session in Toronto."

ShereeR has arrived.

BernieD says, "Ah. Good. Sorry I couldn't do it myself."

BJB says, "hi, Sheree"

ShereeR exclaims, "Hi BJ!"

BernieD exclaims, "Welcome Sheree!"

KeikoS [HelpDesk] smiles to Sheree

ShereeR exclaims, "Long time no see!"

AdamG says, "I am looking forward to San Fran. I just hope the participants aren't as dissapointed as I am."

PhilB asks, "Design patterns - another typology?"

JanetW has arrived. JanetW's personal recorder (recording) has arrived.

BernieD says, "Sorta."

KeikoS [HelpDesk] waves to Janet

BJB says, "welcome, Janet"

AdamG says, "Hi Janet"

BJB says, "looks like we can get started...."

BernieD asks, "Janet from CT?"

ShereeR exclaims, "Busy, busy, busy!"

PhilB [WebTeach] listens to big B.

BJB says, "welcome, everyone, to the WebQuest discussion for September"

BJB says, "we usually start our discussions with introductions..."

JanetW asks, "Yes Jan from CT Did you have a good trip home?"

BJB says, "I'm an art teacher in Pennsylvania"

BernieD projects AboutB.

I'm Bernie Dodge and I'm a professor at San Diego State University in the Department of Educational Technology. For the last five years I've been involved with San Diego Unified School District's two Challenge Grants (which are heavily about WebQuests). More than you'd ever want to know about me can be found at http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/bdodge.html

KeikoS says, "I am an ESL and Japanese teacher from New Mexico, USA."

BJB waits for everyone else to give a short intro

KeikoS [HelpDesk] bows

AdamG says, "I am in a School Consultant in South Florida."

PhilB [WebTeach] projects Intro.

Philip Benz teaches English and does teacher training in web-based learning in the Ardeche region of central France. ----

FredSt projects Fred Steinbroner.

I teach Ed Tech at Boise State University, and also run HyperHelper.org and JigsawHelper.org which are a community of practice for helping teachers and pre-service teachers learn and use the Jigsaw Grouping Method with Web-based Jigsaw Activities. TappedIn.org ASO chat session is 3rd Tuesday of every month at 5 PM Pacific Time for the HyperHelper and JigsawHelper community.

AmyMur arrives from nowhere. AmyMur's personal recorder follows AmyMur to here.

AmyMur says, "yo.."

AmyMur says, "it's goin great"

AmyMur asks, "how are you?"

JanetW projects bio.

Hi, Janet Wislocki here. I have taught in Milford, CT for many years. I have experience as a classroom teacher in grades 2,3,4,5, and 6. For the last 3 years I have been doing staff development- helping teachers integrate technology in the curriculum.I try to come each month to Bernie's webquest session.

PhilB asks, "Wow! this is a high-powered session! And Adam, you also do WebQuest training sessions?"

AmyMur blushes and bows apologetically

ShereeR says, "I am an art educator in St. Pete, Florida. I work with severely emotionally disturbed students. I am the webmaster of wizzlewolf.com and a Ph.D. student with Walden University."

AmyMur says, "Hello. I'm amy."

BernieD says, "Welcome Amy."

AdamG says, "Yes, I do sessions at every school I work with in the South Region and I have created a four day workshop."

AmyMur says, "Thank you Bernie."

BernieD says, "OK... let's begin."

BernieD projects dp1.

I'm glad you could be here this evening. Tonight's topic is something I've been working on since June and it represents most of what I'm doing with WebQuests for the next few months. The topic is Design Patterns, and I hope you'll find it as interesting as I do.

BernieD projects dp2.

Let me begin with a story. Last year at one of the showcases we did as part of the Patterns Project at San Diego City Schools, a teacher stood up and showed a very nice WebQuest he'd created about folk tales. He seemed a little embarassed about showing it though, and not glad to see me in the back of the room. The source of his chagrin was this: he had taken a WebQuest that had been part of the previous summer's training as his starting point. The original WebQuest was about fairy tales and it was a great example of the use of scaffolding within a WebQuest. What he had done, he admitted, was to take out the links and references to fairy tales and replace them with references and links to folk tales. The end result was a solid lesson that was as good as the one that had inspired him. So... was that cheating, or was he working smart? That was the question that I began to mull about back then.

Tim [guest] has arrived.

KeikoS . o O ( DETACH if this is going fast )

BernieD asks, "Everybody know about projections?"

AmyMur nods

AdamG says, "Yes"

KeikoS [HelpDesk] nods

JanetW says, "Working smart- esp if he gave credit and thanks to fairy tale WQ"

PhilB says, "IMHO, he was making a template out of his source WQ."

BernieD says, "Forgive me for the longwinded pre-canned start. We'll get interactive soon."

BernieD projects dp3.

Just so that you know what I'm talking about, here's the original Fairy Tales quest.

BernieD projects the URL: http://209.96.120.4/jhoke/jhwebquest/jhwebquest.htm

BJB checks to see if everyone got the projected url

BernieD says, "Spend a couple of minutes poking around in this one, especially looking at the Process."

PhilB . o O ( I've been trying to convince a colleague to do a French version of this WQ. )

MarshaR has arrived. Marsha's Recorder (recording) has arrived.

AmyMur raises her hand for bernie

BernieD asks, "Yes... the girl in the back row?"

AmyMur smiles

AmyMur says, "Thanks Bernie.. I teach middle school and we've been spending a LOT of time on design for our upcoming social studies web pags..."

BJB shows MarshaR the URL

AmyMur says, "forgive me.. what will you be discussing tonight"

AmyMur asks, "the actual web quest? or the design? or both?"

BernieD says, "No... the design of designs."

AmyMur raises her eyebrows in interest

BernieD gazes at Amy's eyebrows hovering over the room.

PhilB exclaims, "meta-WQ development!"

JanetW says, "themes chart, story template are very useful for the students to organize their thinking and work"

BernieD asks, "Any comments on the Fairy Tale quest?"

AmyMur 's eyebrows float back to her face and she looks around the room more intently

JanetW says, "I could see how this could easily be adapted to folk tales"

AmyMur asks, "do your kids help to develop the quest?"

BernieD says, "Indeed. Just change the links and the scaffold pages."

AdamG says, "I like how the author found the fairy tales online and included them in the WebQuest."

KeikoS says, "Visually attractive to start..."

BernieD says, "This was developed by a teacher in Pennsylvania all by herself."

PhilB says, "You'd want to change the graphics to reflect the new theme."

JanetW says, "real books could also be included in the resources as well as online fairy tales"

BernieD says, "The nice thing about fairy tales is that they're in the public domain and all over the web."

BernieD agrees with Philip as usual.

AmyMur nods and likes the possibilites for her class of middle school kids.. to create these for the lower grades...

AdamG asks, "Did you want us to look at the evaluation??"

BernieD says, "No... let's move on."

AmyMur smiles and giggles

BernieD says, "Good idea, Amy. The September issue of Learning and Leading has a piece about student-created WebQuests."

AmyMur asks, "Mmm.. where can I find that?"

AmyMur asks, "no don't look at it?"

BernieD says, "Amy... it's on the training materials page on my site. Just added it last night. You have to be an ISTE member to access it, though."

PhilB . o O ( You can always bookmark this WQ for later reference. )

AmyMur feels the rope being tightened around her hands...

BernieD projects dp4.

A similar thing happened in March when I spoke at the NETA conference in Omaha. A teacher made a presentation about her first WebQuest in which the task was for the kids to design a 4-day family vacation in Omaha. She admitted that she had just taken the basic structure of another WebQuest about Canada that she'd seen in the SDSU matrix of examples. Again... cheating or working smart? The answer is obvious. If we can take a pedagogically sound structure and slide different content into it, then we're working smart. One of the hesitations that some have expressed about WebQuests is that they take so long to create. If there's any way to create them more quickly, then we'll be able to move ahead and engage more teachers and more content. But how can we do this systematically? That's what I've been thinking about for months.

AmyMur . o O ( Good! I did already.. so at least I'll have an idea )

KeikoS [HelpDesk] thinks deeply

BernieD projects dp5.

From some other reading I was doing, I realized that people in other fields were grappling with the same question. The systematic approach I was looking for had already taken root in an entirely different field: architecture. And it has a name: Design Patterns. A design pattern is a named nugget of insight that captures a successful problem solution that can be applied to a range of situations. For architects, the problem might be how to design the entryway to a home. For teachers, the problem might be how to teach about a particular geographical area. In both cases, there exist successful solutions that can be applied.

AmyMur also ponders and wonders if this is a rhetorical question

BJB checks to see if everyone is keeping up

PhilB . o O ( WebQuest design templates for typical tasks )

BernieD says, "Christopher Alexander wrote a series of books for architects and has had a major impact on their field."

BernieD says, "The idea of design patterns has also taken hold among programmers. The goal is to come up with reusable code."

SueMR has arrived. Sue's Recorder (recording) has arrived.

BernieD exclaims, "And isn't that what teachers need? I think so!"

BJB waves hi to Sue AmyMur asks, "teachers need a reusable code?"

PhilB says, "The task-centered template is the "code"."

BernieD says, "So... what I've been trying to do is to develop general descriptions of some of the more successful WebQuests and put those our there as a starting point for other successful lessons."

ShereeR says, "I think that is a great idea as long as the code was meant to be reusable."

BernieD says, "Teachers need solid lessons that they can easily adapt to different content."

JanetW says, "I think these design patterns will be helpful to those of us running WQ workshops for teachers"

AmyMur asks, "a location then, for all these templates.. or few templates.. for teachers to access and manipulate as they need?" AdamG asks, "Are we talking about a code or a process?"

BernieD says, "Indeed, Sheree. So the trick is to find a reasonable number of broad ideas that can be reused."

AmyMur says, "a product.. that's changeable"

BernieD projects dp6.

So what does a design pattern look like? Here's an example in which I tried to take the wisdom of the original Fairy Tales WebQuest and generalize it to other kinds of content.

BernieD projects the URL: http://webquest.sdsu.edu/designpatterns/GA.htm

PhilB says, "Adam, I think we're really talking about going a step beyond the existing WebQuest templates, by putting in the process but not the content."

BernieD says, "Spend a few minutes looking this over, por favor."

ShereeR says, "There is a big difference between using a design template with reusable code and going to someone else's webquest and plopping in your own stuff. :-("

AmyMur bows and silently slips out the back. AmyMur goes home.

PhilB says, "Sheree -- I'm not sure there is, as long as you credit the source. There's no copyright on concepts, just on words."

BernieD says, "For each design pattern, we'll need to specify what kinds of content it applies to, and where the boundaries are."

BernieD agrees with Philip, as always.

PhilB says, "No, I'm agreeing with *you*, Bernie. As usual, you're the precursor here."

AdamG says, "I think this is great to insure that we are hitting higher levels, but I am not sure about how this saves time."

PhilB [WebTeach] is just reformulating it in his own terms.

BernieD says, "And the way to operationalize the design pattern is by creating a template that's more specific than the generic ones we have now. There will be one for each design pattern."

ShereeR says, "I am not even talking about copyright. I guess since I am an artist by profession, I have a different mindset than you. I wouldn't think of even using someone elses design copyright or not."

AdamG says, "Bernie, that makes a lot of sense for the time factor."

BernieD says, "Teachers don't have the luxury of waiting for the muse and creating something new every time they prepare a lesson. This approach saves time, I think, because you have more of a structure in place to begin with."

PhilB . o O ( Sheree, this is probably off-topic, but frankly, artists are *often* making explicit references to other art, especially in some genres like pastiche. )

JanetW says, "This does not prevent someone from creating thier own without the design template but it does provide direction for those you need it"

AdamG asks, "Is it really breaking copyright if we have them do a save as in explorer and open up in a web editor to change?"

BernieD says, "Gray area, Adam. It depends on how much changing you do. And for sure, regardless of the law, you'd ask permission."

JanetW says, "I believe you need to comtact the creator if you are going to copy and paste and modify"

SueMR says, "You answered my question."

PhilB says, "Of course, once a set of design templates is available, then they are *intended* to serve as starting points for derivative work."

BernieD says, "Anyway... by abstracting good lessons into a more general design pattern, you don't worry so much about ripping off a particular WebQuest."

KeikoS says, "and we are talking about design as in not only visually you can see, but more, right."

MarshaR asks, "There appears to be a great deal of information in the process column. Would you have to rewrite this for your own students?"

BernieD says, "Right, Keiko. It's more about instructional design. Each design pattern will have a unique type of task, a specific set of steps in the process, and probably specific kinds of scaffolding."

PhilB asks, "Marsha, is this material intended for *students* or for other educators?"

SRI_92 [guest] has arrived.

BernieD says, "Marsha... the words you see in the right column here will end up as prompts in the template that goes with this pattern. The teacher/designer will strip them out and put in their own words."

MarshaR says, "Probably both. Depends on the techno-level of the educators."

AdamG says, "Bernie, it seems like you are scaffolding the design process for teachers. Is this your intent."

PhilB says, "This is a logical extension of Bernie's "WebQuest Taskonomy" and the sort of template building going on in places like Kiko.com"

BernieD says, "Sure, Adam. Just continuing what I did with the original templates."

JanetW says, "these design templates would be for teachers or students given the task of creating WQ"

BernieD says, "Yuup. With the excellent help of the teachers in my Advanced WebQuest workshop at the Thacher School in July, I've begun to build up a library of design patterns. Here's what we have so far: "

BernieD projects the URL: http://webquest.sdsu.edu/designpatterns/

KeikoS . o O ( how interesting )

aso [guest] has arrived.

BJB shows aso the URL

BernieD says, "If you click on the title of each design pattern in the left column, you'll go to a more detailed description like the Genre Analysis one you just saw."

PhilB says, "This is really just codifying what people have been doing for some time now -- modeling their course development work on successful precursors."

BernieD says, "Yessiree. Taking advantage of the wisdom of practitioners."

AdamG says, "The change model would be a perfect design for what is going on in our country right now."

BernieD says, "Could be.Or it could be a model for what we need to do in Afghanistan."

JanetW says, "There are more here than I remember this summer I will try to find a graphic for the recommendation one"

PhilB . o O ( witch hunting as a teachable moment... )

BernieD says, "Good! (Janet was there in Ojai and created one of these)"

RoddL has arrived. CFE Recorder (recording) has arrived.

KeikoS says, "This will help newbies for sure."

BernieD says, "I've put up a form for others to submit successful design patterns as well."

BernieD projects the URL: http://webquest.sdsu.edu/tttc-adv/submit-dp.htm

RoddL says, "Sorry i am late, problems with new Mac browser..."

PhilB says, "Far more than just newbies, I think."

BernieD says, "Hi Rodd."

AdamG asks, "I remember reading through this when you first send out the URL, but is gets more impressive every time I look at it. Has anyone submitted anything new?"

BernieD says, "Already someone from that same class has submitted another new pattern. I haven't incorporated it yet."

PhilB says, "Will there be download buttons for the templates? As it stands, it looks like I'll need to either save page-by-page, or use Memoweb to scoop everything up."

KeikoS . o O ( or even PDF )

BernieD says, "I'm speaking about this again in Sacramento in two weeks and will be adding a lot to it before then. So check back later in October."

SueMR exclaims, "This is wonderful!"

JanetW says, "It might too confusing to most about the design templates if they haven't been part of tappedin or taken a workshop or conference with Bernie"

BernieD says, "There will be a download button for each. I've been waiting until they're more final. There's a slide show that describes all this. I first presented it at NECC in Chicago last June. At that point I had only a few design pattern to show. Now, thanks to the Teach the Teachers participants, I've got 22. I'm guessing that by the end of the year we'll have 40.

BernieD projects the URL: http://webquest.sdsu.edu/necc2001/

PhilB says, "Janet, I'm not sure. The way the templates themselves are worded, a teacher can just open them, page by page, and work through to the end, to achieve a finished, usable product."

JanetW says, "PhilB I was referring to submitting a design template"

BernieD says, "I'm hoping that's true, Philip. I want it to be easy for more people to do great lessons this way."

BernieD says, "Ah.. yes... the submit form requires that you know what this is all about."

PhilB says, "Yes, in order to submi a design template, you'd need no small amount of experience designing WebQuests yourself, in order to reach the level of abstraction necessary."

PhilB says, "Otherwise people will be submitting templates for activities which aren't all that hot to begin with."

BernieD says, "So... that's where I am with this. I'm excited about it because it gives me a new way to think about this stuff. I hope that others get re-energized too."

AdamG asks, "What are the next steps?"

JanetW says, "These templates will hopefully impact the quality of wq being created"

PhilB [WebTeach] dreams wistfully of being able to devote large chunks of time to content design.

BernieD says, "Refining the 22 patterns, making the templates, inviting more participation in creating more patterns."

BernieD says, "I'll be very happy if next summer's workshops have 50-60 great patterns to start with."

PhilB says, "I've got a question dealing with the specificity of WebQuests, and perhaps with the template design issue."

BernieD says, "Go, sir."

PhilB says, "In one of Tom March's papers, he laid out a six-category typology of web activities, the 6th of which was a webquest, two others were insight reflectors & concept builders."

PhilB says, "For me, these last two were really different flavors of WebQuests..."

BernieD says, "I agree with you. Tom and I parted company three years ago on where the borders were for the WebQuest concept."

RoddL says, "I can see the gulf widening between those in the know, and those who have yet to even test teaching with the Internet as more than an encyclopedia."

PhilB [WebTeach] nods to Rodd.

JanetW says, "this makes teachers crazy"

BernieD says, "There will always be newbies. Let's just tug them along."

PhilB says, "For so many colleagues here, using the internet still means only doing web searches. Google pedagogy."

BernieD exclaims, "Pedagoogly!"

RoddL says, "There are so few teachers really in tow, but those pushing the envelope are really setting the table for those who do follow."

BernieD says, "As always. There's never been a time when everyone's been with-it in any domain."

PhilB says, "And the French national education system has with much fanfare launched a student-centered project-based concept, unfortunately leaving the burden for conceptualizing the tasks to be undertaken completely in the hands of students."

BernieD asks, "hmmm... like Summerhill?"

RoddL asks, "Do these 22, 40, more models replace the Taskonomy or stretch it or are they different animals with the type of task being doable different ways?"

PhilB says, "While excellent models are out there, just waiting to be used.*"

MarshaR has disconnected.

AdamG says, "It looks like it expands the taskonomy and insures higher levels of thinking and quality."

JanetW says, "it could replace it"

PhilB says, "These design patterns are lesson-design scaffolding that help teachers acheive what the "taskonomy" only showed by demonstration."

BJB says, "a reminder that if you want a transcript of tonight's discussion type your email now, please, and I'll get the transcript out to you."

BernieD says, "Rodd... the taskonomy is just about tasks; these patterns include the other parts as well. In some cases, the patterns will be a subset of taskonomy tasks. I guess it's just a different way to slice the pie."

RoddL says, "roddluci@enoreo.on.ca"

FredSt says, "fred@steinbroner.com"

BernieD says, "That's BJ's gentle way to tell us to wrap it up."

RoddL says, "More ways of looking at things doesn't necessarily help the newbie..."

Tim [guest] has arrived.

SueMR says, "sue_roseman@ocdsb.edu.on.ca"

ShereeR exclaims, "Thank you very much Bernie! You always are so interesting!"

RoddL says, "Thanks I look forward to catching the early part of the session."

RoddL says, "Thanks"

AdamG says, "Bernie any suggestions on how to think about creating a new design task would be greatly appreciated."

KeikoS says, "This is a lot of hope for newbies like myself"

PhilB says, "Rodd, but before, all you could do was let teachers gaze at exemplary WebQuests and dream. Now they can leap right into making their own, with far more assistance than when they could only use the generic template."

ShereeR has disconnected.

JanetW says, "Thanks Bernie for a good session and see everyone next month"

KeikoS [HelpDesk] bows to Bernie

RoddL says, "I agree Phil. There are stages to each person's growth. See them. Find some. Use them. Create them."

BernieD says, "Next month's session is called WebQuests for Global Understanding. I'm collecting examples of lessons that promote cultural understanding and the challenge of making peace. October 25, 4pm Pacific Time. Hope to see you here again."

SueMR exclaims, "Thanks Bernie. I feel inspired!"

KeikoS exclaims, "Ohh, I gotta come!"

FredSt says, "Thanks Bernie for some great thoughts on how I may be able to better combine Jigsaw Activities with WebQuests using a number of different templates."

PhilB says, "Thanks, Bernie, for giving us so much more to think about."

AdamG says, "See everyone next month. Any thoughts on doing one on student created WebQuests or have I missed that one."

JanetW has disconnected.

KeikoS says, "Thank you Bernie for the theme."

KeikoS [HelpDesk] bows deeper BernieD says, "Good topic for November, Adam."

BernieD exclaims, "Good night all!"

KeikoS says, "Good night."

AdamG has disconnected.

PhilB [WebTeach] has disconnected.

KeikoS [HelpDesk] suddenly disappears.

RoddL says, "Goodnight JohnBoy...."

BJB waves goodnight. Thanks, Bernie

BernieD has disconnected.

Disconnected from TAPPED IN on Thu Sep 27 17:04:06 2001 PDT.